Obama excuses the torturers...?
April 18th 2009 14:49
Obama, his election, then inauguration, was a marvellous thing to behold. I taped the inauguration, and watched it live, and marvelled at its powerful message, and then became embarrassed, when the fabulous diva of divas, Aretha Franklin, sang with such a strained voice at times. Well, at least she did it live, unlike Yitzhak Perlman and YoYo Ma, et al, who mimed their performance to a tape!
They had recorded their performance two days earlier and, apparently, were unable to risk their instruments not behaving properly due to the freezing weather. Well, fair enough, but, how demeaning for them, and how tacky of the whole set up. Why not live link to them in a warm studio nearby?
Anyway, this is not the thrust of my argument here, but one of the cuts, that are now exposing the true nature of the new administration in the USA, under President Obama. Is this presidency going to be one of all smiles and empty rhetoric, all smoke and mirrors?
It seems somewhat incongruous to me, (and I readily admit I am rather naive in matters world politic), that the President is going to allow torturers off the hook, from prosecution, if they followed the legal guidelines at the time.
One point about this; it was Cheney, Rumsfeld and Bush, who colluded to allow the definition of "torture" to be altered, so as to allow interrogation techniques, considered by the Geneva Convention as torture, to then be legalised for use as the military saw fit. They also altered the legal recognition of a US controlled base, existing outside of continental America, so as to disallow jurisdiction under the Supreme Court of America.
Were these alterations to USA law actually legal?
That does not seem to worry the new President, who is giving a seemingly blanket pardon to the torturers. I actually agree with this move, as obviously these sadistic soldiers were following orders, but only on this condition, that those senior politicians who orchestrated the use of torture, the perversion of the human rights, be held fully accountable and put to trial.
Centuries ago, it was discovered that torture was fruitless; the Romans abandoned it in 200AD, the Dominicans and their Inquisition hung on to it however, they tortured from 1252 till 1816, when finally a Pope of some conscience issued a Papal Bull to stop its use.
Abandonment of torture happened in Russia in 1801, France in 1789, Italy in 1786; all those nations agreed that torture was self defeating, as the victim will tell you anything to stop it, admit to anything you ask of them, in short, produce the answers you, the interrogator, wish to hear.
So, for that reason, torture was abandoned as a formal form of State investigation and interrogation.
Let the following words sink deep;
...barbarous custom of whipping men suspected of having important secrets to reveal must be abolished. It has always been recognized that this method of interrogation, by putting men to the torture, is useless. The wretches say whatever comes into their heads and whatever they think one wants to believe. Consequently, the Commander-in-Chief forbids the use of a method which is contrary to reason and humanity.
So said Napolean Bonaparte in a letter to Major-General Berthier dated the year 1798.
So why was torture used by the USA after 911?
Can you put two and three together....????
better than musical torture!
They had recorded their performance two days earlier and, apparently, were unable to risk their instruments not behaving properly due to the freezing weather. Well, fair enough, but, how demeaning for them, and how tacky of the whole set up. Why not live link to them in a warm studio nearby?
Anyway, this is not the thrust of my argument here, but one of the cuts, that are now exposing the true nature of the new administration in the USA, under President Obama. Is this presidency going to be one of all smiles and empty rhetoric, all smoke and mirrors?
It seems somewhat incongruous to me, (and I readily admit I am rather naive in matters world politic), that the President is going to allow torturers off the hook, from prosecution, if they followed the legal guidelines at the time.
One point about this; it was Cheney, Rumsfeld and Bush, who colluded to allow the definition of "torture" to be altered, so as to allow interrogation techniques, considered by the Geneva Convention as torture, to then be legalised for use as the military saw fit. They also altered the legal recognition of a US controlled base, existing outside of continental America, so as to disallow jurisdiction under the Supreme Court of America.
Were these alterations to USA law actually legal?
That does not seem to worry the new President, who is giving a seemingly blanket pardon to the torturers. I actually agree with this move, as obviously these sadistic soldiers were following orders, but only on this condition, that those senior politicians who orchestrated the use of torture, the perversion of the human rights, be held fully accountable and put to trial.
Centuries ago, it was discovered that torture was fruitless; the Romans abandoned it in 200AD, the Dominicans and their Inquisition hung on to it however, they tortured from 1252 till 1816, when finally a Pope of some conscience issued a Papal Bull to stop its use.
Abandonment of torture happened in Russia in 1801, France in 1789, Italy in 1786; all those nations agreed that torture was self defeating, as the victim will tell you anything to stop it, admit to anything you ask of them, in short, produce the answers you, the interrogator, wish to hear.
So, for that reason, torture was abandoned as a formal form of State investigation and interrogation.
Let the following words sink deep;
...barbarous custom of whipping men suspected of having important secrets to reveal must be abolished. It has always been recognized that this method of interrogation, by putting men to the torture, is useless. The wretches say whatever comes into their heads and whatever they think one wants to believe. Consequently, the Commander-in-Chief forbids the use of a method which is contrary to reason and humanity.
So said Napolean Bonaparte in a letter to Major-General Berthier dated the year 1798.
So why was torture used by the USA after 911?
Can you put two and three together....????
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Comment by Nevar
Is Why
The US does use enhanced interrogation techniques and Obama now realizes that they don't constitute torture, and they work.
Welcome to reality.
BTW: PLEASE TAKE NOTE - my work is copyleft
Comment by Bill Green
Talking Headlines
Here's another one. Torture has never worked and all civilised people recognise this. Nevar's obviously a cruel and rampant twit.
Comment by Bill Green
Talking Headlines
Comment by Damo
Whether Left or Right they pick and choose their niceties and barbarities that suits them at the time.
No wonder I do not like politicians.
Comment by Mountain Fog
Infognito
Screen Trek
QUOTE ME NO QUOTES!
As for your abusive remark, "Fog put a sock in your mouth and shut up."
Is that another example of "enhanced interrogation" RAVEN?
You have stimulated me to post on this further.... and I will quote the United Nations...which, of course, America is a member!
By the way, reacting, (or is that abreaction in your case?), in such a violent and crude manner does not serve you well, it merely reinforces the notion that you support government orchestrated violence, designed not to gain truth, but to force pre-determined self-serving answers....lies in other words!!!
But, have a nice day anyway, just don't inflict it on anyone else!
Oh, and your work is "copyleft"?
REALLY?
Why tell me?
I have not bothered to read the ravings of extremist right wingers for so long now, I had forgotten who they were, so thanks for identifying yourself..tee hee!
Just for the record, EVERYTHING I write in opinion is my work alone, and if not, I put it in quotation marks and insert a link, or author note.
All my work is COPYRIGHT PROTECTED, not by Orble, as I own all my work here on Orble, but by special arrangement in my Orble contract. Copyright is legally enforceable.
So, beware yourself RAVEN!!
Frankly, I think you need a good lie down and a cup of tea, you sound emotionally overwrought...
fog
Comment by Mountain Fog
Infognito
Screen Trek
QUOTE ME NO QUOTES!
do you mean you posted a comment in reply to RAVEN here, and then it was removed?
It was not removed by me, I can assure you if that is what happened.
Post it again, if so, and I can read it.
Hey, it just occurred to me that Nevar is sending up a cruel and rampant twit. Sorry.
And no, I do not think RAVEN is trying to be witty and a devil's advocate, as he is abusive towards myself. Who (what twit?) are you thinking of anyway? You may have to post it to me privately I guess.
cheers
fog
Comment by Mountain Fog
Infognito
Screen Trek
QUOTE ME NO QUOTES!
yes I am inclined to agree, there seems to be little difference between the major parties on many issues, and once in government, they all lie to the back teeth and obfuscate the truth as it suits them.
Pity really, for awhile there, I was lulled into a false sense of hope, that true and meaningful change was to happen in America, so she could regain the moral ground increasingly lost since WW2.
Then again, we should give the new Prez at least a year or so, to see what develops.
However, my guess is, should he, for instance, open up a Congressional investigation of the whole torture affair, and even more dangerously, the 911 events, Obama would probably fall foul of ...well.... let's just say, another Oswald moment.......
cheers
fog
Comment by Postmodern Critic
Postmodern Critic
Relativity Watch
Padsoc
This is the first major thing Obama has done that I disagree with. I know it won't be the last, but I can't help but hope.
Amnesty International has a petition to launch an independent investigation into what happened (too tired to provide the link), but I fear people will still be too in love with Obama to challenge him in the numbers needed.
Cheers,
Epiphanie
Comment by Someone
Evil Pleasures
Random Musings on Life, Love and Everything
Let's Get Down To Business
Don't police everywhere still use sleep-deprivation as an interrogation technique? That could be classed as torture too, couldn't it?
Obviously suspects need to be interrogated... it's just a matter of where to draw the line...
What if a primary school was going to be bombed, and a suspect that knew the details had been caught but wouldn't say a word. Would torture be justifiable then? I don't agree with the concept of torture, but if you have to weigh up the suffering of a captured combatant against the lives of many innocents... I can't say for certain I wouldn't condone it.
Comment by Nevar
Is Why
Is this your latest persona? The harried gay blade making threats behind the mask of anonymity; I have posted my name, phone number, address and email to my blogs many times over and invited those concerned enough to please, drop by for tea and a chat. That invitation stands.
Ah, the posturing Bill Green is holding court again, hahahaha, good to see you're up for a laugh. Still recruiting groupies are you?
Again, put a sock in it. Enhanced interrogations are not torture; look to the Islamic radical jihadi's around the world for examples of real torture. It went on long before, and will continue long after those conflicts are resolved.
Now, try and prove me wrong with substance and not emotional rhetoric.
Comment by Nevar
Is Why
Get that organization of dead beats off of American soil.
That pretty well sums up my opinion of the UN.
Comment by Bill Green
Talking Headlines
Comment by Mountain Fog
Infognito
Screen Trek
QUOTE ME NO QUOTES!
yes, it will take time for people to stop worrying about tarnishing Prez Obama's reputation, (except the moron bigots of course, and Orble has its fair share of them...)but, Obama has to stand up to it at some point.
It is my greatest fear that he is just a facade, so the 'machine' can continue unabated...hope I am wrong..
cheers
fog
Comment by Mountain Fog
Infognito
Screen Trek
QUOTE ME NO QUOTES!
The UN has consistantly shown up nations that are abusing human rights, and it has consistantly helped children around the world.
However, the UN Security Council has been made a toothless tiger because, more often than not, one of the permanent sitting member state's veto, of a censure move against a nation committing a human rights violation, such as; against Israel, or China, or Russia, or one of the many African nations etc. One nation always stops intervention, or censure, against a country they are friendly with (trade is the thing).
So, blame your own country, blame Bush for instance, as the USA has, like the other four permanent members, vetoed many attempts to do something for the suffering.
It would be really interesting to see what would happen if all nations had one vote on the security council....
Comment by Mountain Fog
Infognito
Screen Trek
QUOTE ME NO QUOTES!
yes, there is a difference between interrogation and torture.
Extended interrogations can be unpleasant, but still not be torture.
The instilling of fear of physical harm or death, infliction of physical pain, and extended duress are examples of torture. Denying a captive the right to sleep over extended periods of time is torture.
Causing people to suffer by water boarding, for example, is torture, as they feel as if they are drowning.
Police do torture in Western states, of course, but they select sneakier ways of doing it, so as to appear they are not guilty of the crime.
And make no mistake, TORTURE IS A CRIME.
To descend to the level of torture, is to descend to below the ideals that make our way of life so much more tolerable and enviable, than that of countries that use it as a matter of course.
Make one excuse, for the use of torture, and the authorities will soon see ways of extending its use, justifying themselves all the way.
An oft used phrase these (covertly) neo-fascists use is, "the end justifies the means." No it doesn't, it allows fascists and psychopaths to have their way in the world.
At the end of the day, the victim of torture will always give in, and say anything you want them to, but it may not be the truth, just the truth the torturers want to hear. It worked for the Spanish Inquisiton and the Catholic Church for hundreds of years! Those poor women weren't witches, but they admitted they were!
I cite some of the Guantanamo Bay victims, for instance, now claiming they engineered and planned the 911 attack, as proof of the fact that torture will only benefit those not seeking the truth, but a lie, to occlude the facts of a given situation.
Torture will always give the totalitarian minded amongst us the answers they want, therefore, the excuses they need to further their deadly agendas.
In WW2, the British found the best way to extract information from captive German generals, was to leave them be, in a fully catered country manor house, where they were left to talk amongst themselves. In fact, every room was bugged, and the British found out more that way, than any other method they had tried.
cheers
fog
Comment by Mountain Fog
Infognito
Screen Trek
QUOTE ME NO QUOTES!
your paltry attempts to defend, whitewash, and/or excuse the Bush Administration for its terrible abuses of human rights and its outrageous tolerance of corruption in the alleged re-building programmes of Iraq, are puerile and laughable.
What the Bush administration did for America is create a bigger gulf between it and the solution to the problems we are all currently enduring. They made enemies not because they were trying to protect America, but to further arms manufacturer corporate profit, while they secured oil rich lands and within that, the vested interests of their supporters.
Yet there you sit, all puffed up with your self-importance, the great white sage of the snow swamps, and what do you get out of defending these corrupt psychopaths?
While you sit in polluted snow, they sit in mansions and laugh at all the gullible they have used for their own financial gain and power play agendas.
To support people like that, you are either one of the financial elite, brain washed, or so simple minded you can't see the wood for the trees... and you've let us all know you don't have millions in the bank!
Comment by Mountain Fog
Infognito
Screen Trek
QUOTE ME NO QUOTES!
I am sorry to read that you had suffered torture yourself. You should do a post on that, if you can bear it, as you are perfectly placed to give a real life view of its effect, its effectiveness and/or futility.
Also, how it lends itself to creating false information that the torturer can make the victim create (make up).
cheers
fog